Money Matters—An Interview with Rev. Cary James, Jr. on the State of Clergy Financial Well-Being

Wespath’s Cynthia Dopke, Manager, Church Relations, recently interviewed Rev. Cary James, Jr., about how financial well-being plays a critical role in the overall well-being of clergy. Cary is assistant director at the Mid-Atlantic United Methodist Foundation and content advisor for Saving Grace, a six-week program and workbook that helps clergy and congregations gain a better understanding of their relationship with money. The interview below has been edited for length and clarity. Watch the full interview.

How has your ministry moved you into involvement with the Clergy Financial Well-Being Initiative and Saving Grace?

I got involved after an experience where one of my appointments didn’t really understand clergy taxes and I had to deal with the consequences in terms of penalties, interest, fees and things of that nature. That made me want to further educate myself on the tax differences between clergy and non-clergy. Over time, I found other clergy in this situation as well.

This led me to work with other clergy and leadership in the Baltimore-Washington Conference to address the confusion around clergy taxes. Through that, I started a small group to discuss this issue and share what we learned. That eventually led me to Saving Grace and becoming a finance coach with the Mid-Atlantic United Methodist Foundation and some other opportunities related to clergy taxes and finances.

There's a lot of stress related to finances and a lot of stress related to income. As a clergy person, it's very important to understand finances, to understand personal finances and to understand church finances. I can help educate people so they better understand financial literacy and clergy taxes.

How do you feel when you hear that, in response to the 2023 Clergy Well-Being Survey, nearly 75% of clergy say they have experienced at least a little stress related to their financial situation, and about 50% say they are not on track for a comfortable retirement?

Those statistics break my heart. We want to make sure that we're providing resources and financial literacy. We also want to encourage clergy persons to have personal responsibility and accountability when it comes to their own spending, their own saving and their own earning.

As I’ve talked with clergy persons over the years, a lot of them don't have a plan when it comes to their finances, even retirement. Whatever the church does on their behalf, that's all that they have done in terms of their retirement planning. We want to make sure that we share the information and resources, and encourage clergy to use them so that we can turn the tide and help more clergy reduce their stress when it comes to financial well-being and planning for a comfortable retirement.

Sometimes we hear from clergy that they can't retire when they planned because it wouldn't be as comfortable as they wanted so they work longer. And on the other end, we make resources available to younger clergy about how to invest and save early for retirement, but a lot of them feel that they can't due to student loans and debt.

Can you say a little bit about Saving Grace and why you feel it's a good resource for United Methodist clergy and laity?

I've been involved with Saving Grace since 2020, almost from the beginning. I’m so glad that we have a resource that helps people become grounded in a biblical understanding of a proper relationship to money and for each participant to commit and develop a biblically based spending plan for their households. We want to make sure that as we go through our week or our month, depending on what level of planning we do, that it does line up with our Christian values.

Saving Grace also has specific resources for clergy related to compensation, planning for retirement, and helping them understand clergy taxes. It's a great resource because it goes into those areas where there are differences for clergy compared to non-clergy employees.

One of the greatest testimonials I received was from a person in retirement and she had $13,000 in debt. After she completed the curriculum, she put together a plan and she was able to pay off her $13,000 in debt in retirement.

Saving Grace is not just for clergy, but for laity as well. I've done it for the community. A lot of young adults are learning early on how to manage their finances and have a spending plan. Clergy, laity, young and older can all benefit from this curriculum.

It sounds like Saving Grace would have been helpful in the beginning of your ministry when you were facing a situation where clergy taxes and clergy finances weren't understood.

Definitely. There are parts of Saving Grace that will be beneficial for finance teams at churches and finance committees to understand nuances as it relates to clergy taxes, how to properly set up compensation. For example, some clergy are getting 1099s when they should be getting W-2s.

As you reflect on where we are today, where do you see signs of hope in your work around clergy financial well-being?

One of the signs of hope that I'm seeing is that a lot of clergy are more receptive now to admitting that they're not experiencing the level of financial well-being they want to achieve as it relates to money. There's a lot of guilt and shame when it comes to debt and things of that nature. A lot of clergy suffer in silence because they don't want to be judged.

Through Saving Grace and other opportunities, now a lot of clergy are saying, “I'm tired of suffering in silence. I'm going to name the guilt. I'm going to name the fact that I am in debt. I'm going to name the fact that I need help with my finances.” It's not as taboo as it was before—a lot of clergypersons are really taking advantage of financial literacy, taking advantage of EY Financial Planning Services, and taking advantage of all the information and education that's out there.

Another area where I see hope is that conversations about this topic are being had by boards of ordained ministry, by bishops, by annual conferences looking at what we can do to create a more just system.

We also see that Wespath is providing additional resources—EY Financial Planning Services, retirement resources, retirement webinars—to help clergy get on track for retirement and have a plan in place to improve their financial literacy.

Thank you, Rev. James, for sharing your insights and experience on clergy financial well-being.

Saving Grace

Saving Grace is a six-week program and workbook that helps clergy, laity and congregations gain a better understanding of their relationship with money, including unique aspects of clergy tax and housing considerations and what they mean for setting up a compensation package with your congregation, planning for retirement, and financial leadership of your congregation.

Learn more about Saving Grace and register now for fall’s virtual session, beginning September 10.